On Seed Stories and Communication with Lunden Souza – Ep. 177

In this episode, Dr. Jade welcomes Lunden Souza to talk about communication skills, seed stories, and how choosing the right language to use with ourselves and with others is fundamental. The notion of ‘seed stories’ means that we, living as adults, somehow reproduce through the way we act, think, and behave, the old stories, traumas, and lessons we had as kids. It influences our personality and reality.

Lunden, who is a Life Coach and a Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP) Practitioner, also shares some good practices we can use to communicate our feelings, wants, and needs in a way that doesn’t harm the other person. According to Lunden, it’s really important to learn how to request something you need while also setting boundaries to avoid certain situations you don’t need. Our communication skills are also impacted by our ‘seed stories’. Tune in to learn more!

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Related Links

Nonviolent Communication by MarshallB. Rosenberg

Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown


Connect with Lunden

Instagram: @lifelikelunden

Facebook: Life Like Lunden

Podcast: Self Love and Sweat The Podcast


Connect with Dr. Jade Teta

Website: www.jadeteta.com

Instagram: @jadeteta




Podcast Intro: [00:14] welcome to the Next Level Human Podcast. As a human, you have a job to do. In fact, you have four jobs; to earn and manage money, to attain and maintain health and fitness, to build and sustain personal relationships, to find meaning and make a difference. None of these jobs are taught in school and that is what this podcast is designed to do. To educate us all on living our most fulfilled lives through the mastery of these four jobs. I'm your host, Dr. Jade Teta and I believe we are here living this life for three reasons and three reasons only; to learn, to teach and to love. In this podcast, I will be learning, teaching, and loving right along with you. I'm grateful to have your company; here is to our next level.

Episode Intro: [01:18] okay, what's going on everybody? Welcome to today's show. I'm really excited about this one, because I'm with one of my favorite people in the world, Lunden Souza, Lunden and you're gonna learn a little bit about her. I'm gonna let her tell you all about her. It's the first time you all have met her on the show but the conversation we're going to have today is something Lunden and I talk about all the time and we're sitting at home just chilling, we begin to have conversations in the realm of exactly what we're going to talk about today, which is really about change but more particularly about the idea of how we humans live out of what I would call seed stories. And what a seed story is, is it's a story that we formulate about the world at a very young age that essentially germinates all of our other ideas and affects how we then show up in the world. Now, the truth of the matter is Lunden is an expert in many things that I am not, which is why I wanted her to be on the show. And I wanted to learn from her and I wanted you to learn from her, for example, she is really well versed in something called NLP or neuro linguistic programming, which I don't know a whole lot about, she'll tell us a little bit about but my understanding of it, it's the way that we speak about the world oftentimes determines a lot about our behaviors. And we can uncover a lot about our behaviors in the language that we use. And we also can affect our behaviors by the language that we use. And this is pertinent to this conversation, because we can understand a little bit about people seed stories, by the way that they talk. And also, when we are dealing with seed stories and trying to rewrite these stories, we can always change the environment that we're in, and the people that we are around. And so the way we speak to those people, and communicate to them is also something we have to be aware of. And Lunden is also very, very well versed in that so I'm gonna let you learn and introduce yourself, I will say this to everybody, Lunden and I have very similar backgrounds in that we both started in fitness. And then we both got more and more and more into mindset, psychology, and life coaching as we've gone through our trajectory and our careers. And this is why this conversation is really, really important because I think we both believe and correct me if I'm wrong here, learn if I'm speaking for you, but we both believe mindset sort of rules, everything. You cannot go anywhere in life if you cannot get the mindset, right. And so that's why we're having this conversation today around behavior change around seed stories around traumas around the idea of how we change and how our thoughts and our behaviors and our feelings and our choices and our actions have to change in response. So I'm gonna let you start wherever you want to start. I would really like you to just give them an idea of how you got started in this work and sort of how you got here and where you began.

Lunden  [04:24]  Cool. Thanks for having me. Thanks for the intro. Yeah, my name is Lunden Souza. I'm a life coach and NLP practitioner and yeah, like you said, I got started in fitness when I moved from my hometown to go to college. I started personal training started personal training myself and other clients and just really loved fitness loved fitness for the way that it made me feel it was a great way for me to cope with stress and yeah, I just loved it loved what it did for me loved the connection I had with my clients. But what I realized you know, pretty quickly was I was using fitness as like an end all be all tool for everything. And I often say it's kind of like, you know, when you try to build everything with a hammer or you even use like, I don't know, the end of a flashlight to be a hammer, right when you're like nailing something to the wall where it was just my tool for everything. If I was happy I was going to work out if I was stressed, I was going to work out if I was trying to process something workout. And I just realized that I was just being fulfilled by more workouts more doing. And, you know, I mean, it was a long process and a long journey. But I just realized, yeah, there is that other component of mindset, it really goes hand in hand with fitness. And, you know, you can't always fix the inside by working on the outside. And while it's a great tool, there are a lot of other tools. And so I just started going on this quest for Yeah, mindset tools is really what it was, it was just kind of like that personal development space, it was delving into more of thinking about what I'm thinking about, change your words, change your world, being able to create the perception that I wanted, based on words and mindset, in addition to having fitness as a tool. And so I found it so beneficial in my life. And yeah, and in my lives in the lives of the clients that I was working with. And I just found that communicate, like, it's great that we are working out, right, it's great that we have fit bodies, it's great that we you know, maybe found the perfect probe program that gave us tight abs and lifted by and like the body, the physical body that we want, but then it's like, what are we going to do with that? And what is the bigger contribution that we're going to make? And so I started asking myself these questions, I started realizing a lot of the ways that I was holding myself back with mindset with the word choices that I was using with a lot of these seed stories and some of these repeat things that I found myself in this loop. And yeah, sometimes continue to find myself in loops, because we're always doing this work here. And so yeah, I just I really found it so helpful, and so beneficial. And especially in this mindset, space, neuro linguistic programming was something that really, really helped me. As I was just diving deeper into life coaching myself and to others, certain things come up and I just really found that using my perception as my superpower, instead of my prison was really the direction that I wanted to go. And NLP was a method that I got introduced to by Aubrey Pol, who is my mentor, and I got certified in it, and then I got recertified in it, and I just found it to be such a powerful tool because when we look at Neuro Linguistic Programming, okay as the word Neuro Linguistic Programming neuro, our brain, linguistic, the words that we use and the programming, right, we have a programming, whether we want to admit it or not, we all have some sort of programming that, like you said, could have developed from things early on interactions we've had in the world, all of this and we're already thinking about something we're already we already have something on repeat. And so for me, NLP has been a tool for myself and for my clients to help us rewrite the story for it to help us really see okay, we are already for a fitness reference, putting in the rep saying these things, repeating these stories, being in these loops over and over and over again, getting this result. How about we try putting in the reps over here and see if we can get a more empowering result, something that's more in alignment with, with how you want to show up and so, yeah, NLP has been super powerful. And then just also, like you said, just being aware of how we show up in the world, and I think it's great that we can get in our workouts fitness is awesome. It's an amazing tool, it helps me break through a lot of barriers. And I feel like it's not the end all be all tool. And maybe somebody listening here is like I was to where it's just like, happy workout stressed workout. Don't want to face a situation workout, do more, you know more. Yeah, just more physical doing, and less introspection and so that was me. And so this has just been kind of a fun journey. And yeah, that just happens to be the modality that I love, neuro linguistic programming. And I know we want to talk a little bit about some cool tools there.

Jade: [08:57] okay. So before we dive deep into this, I want to actually share something that I know about you that I find telling about this, this work that you do, and this work I do that I want to share with people. So Lunden is very humble. But one of the things you should know about her is that she did fitness at a very high level with one of the biggest fitness companies I guess we would say in the world. So she spent six, seven years in Austria, correct me if I if I get this story wrong, working for a company that eventually sold to Adidas, this is someone who built this company from the ground up and this is what I find important here like me, Lunden has done 1000s and 1000s of workouts with 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people and what I want to drive home here is that when you have this many reps in fitness, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I know this from other conversations that we've had, and I just think this is where we should start this conversation. When you have that many workouts and you see some people have success, you, but you also get insight into lots and lots of people spinning their wheels. So they're doing all these things. They're working out like crazy, yet they don't seem to be getting the physical results. And the question is why right now the next place we normally go is okay, then it's got to be diet. Well, just like working out with people in the gym, I've seen 1000s of people, and work with 10s of 1000s of people on diet, and that also most of the time doesn't seem to make the change. And so one of the things that happened to me, which I think happened to you is to realize, after all these reps, after all these people working out with them, and working with diet, etc, you finally get to this place where you go, something else must be happening underneath all of this, which is why people can't stay on the diets, why the exercise doesn't work. And I think we both arrived at the idea that this is a psychology that is going on here. It's not just about doing more working out longer, or working out hard or eating more of the right foods. This is the dominant conversation in the health and fitness world. However, most people like you and me who've got 10s of 1000s of reps with people in workouts and diets come to this place, this place of mindset. And I find that telling and I find all of you listening to this, it's just something I wanted to point out to you. Because if you look very closely at people who have the most reps in fitness, and in nutrition, you'll find that most of them eventually find their way into the realm of mindset. And that is no accident, because this is where the big differences are made. I think so I just want to get your thoughts on that. Do you agree with that? Do you disagree with that, because one of the things that I feel like you and I have in common is that we basically sometimes talk about this idea of like, we can be compassionate with and and empathetic both with ourselves and others, but we oftentimes go, okay, they're just not there yet is a phrase that we often use, which essentially just means they don't realize yet that what's driving the frustration and what's driving the need to diet and exercise and the obsessive-ness around that is really the psychological aspect of things and the stories that they are telling that they do not know that they are telling.

Lunden: [12:32] Yeah, no, I agree there in the sense that, you know, I used to frustrate me to, to your point of when you have the reps and reps, you're like, there's something else that used to frustrate me because it's like, no one comes and I'm you know, now it's different. Because I've been doing this for a while, maybe this topic is a little bit sexier. But like, no one came, you know, these 1000s of people that were coming to these workouts or whatever, it's like no one comes and asks for mindset work. People are like, you know, I want the workout which workout burns the most calories, you know, which workout is the best? How can I shape this, this, this or this but like I said, you get to a point where, you know, what you look like can really only go so far and I remember having a conversation one time I was in Scotland on this journey trip and we did all these amazing hikes and I was talking to one of the girls on the trip and I was just Yeah, it was right after leaving Adidas Runtastic and just kind of sharing that I'm like, I don't want to write blog postings about workouts that burn X amount of calories to this and I just feel like people are asking, you know, a lot of the I was almost kind of like asking a lot of the wrong questions, you know, and I was just talking with her and we're hiking and she's like, Yeah, just seems like you know, people are really looking to fix that outer muffin top but really what they need is help with the inner muffin top and I was like yeah, so I always use that with when I think about it. It's like sometimes we do try to go after something that just somehow seems like the right thing to go after but really you know, the internet muffin top is like is the better one to go after and so now it's cool because I think when we continue to show up and like we've evolved as coaches and I Keno sometimes you and I will talk about this like people love the fitness workout stuff like when we post the mindset stuff like it's just less engagement a little like, whatever but I just feel like that's really the important stuff and now that I've been doing it long enough it's like I do have people who come to me they're like yeah, I want to work on my mindset like my communication, my leadership skills. I want to be a better partner like a lot of the stuff where I'm like yes, okay, this is the stuff I love to work at. But for a while and yeah, that was you know where I was supposed to start and that was where my journey was supposed to be. And I was supposed to go through that fitness experience and extremes I often say to like I don't know if I would know my when it comes to fitness when it comes to a lot of things. I would know my balance if I hadn't been at those extremes and so I appreciate them sometimes too.

Jade: [14:45] Yeah, it's like as a as a coach, you kind of have to go through some of the things that people you know are going through and eventually I think all people get to the mindset stuff, but let's, let's jump into the inner muffin top stuff and let me tell you my hypothesis about why people don't want Let's talk about this stuff first. It's because it is so varied and so different. There is not in my mind a recipe book for the mindset stuff to make. Now, you know, people think, right, they'll go buy a book, like the compound effect or high performance, but you know, and all these different books, but the truth is, when you're sitting in front of somebody, these stories that they're telling are varied. They are nuanced. They are, you know, deep and sort of cryptic at times. And so it is one of these things that you have to first become aware of these stories, that is not always fun, because there's a lot of emotions that we attach to things like guilt, things like shame, things like anger, a lot of these emotions that come up, when we start talking about stories are not things that we humans really want to sit in. We want to kind to avoid that. And I think that's one of the reasons why we go to diet and exercise because it is a good distraction technique from a lot of this sort of inner work. But the way I want to phrase it to the listeners and this is more of a question for you, as opposed is that if there's a story underneath, that is causing you to feel a particular way, let's say unworthy, not attractive, not smart. You know, less than or whatever that is. Now, imagine this, imagine there's a story there underneath that you're not necessarily aware of that is causing these emotions, that you also are not necessarily allowing yourself to feel, but they are there. And then you go and work out and do all the things. But when you look in the mirror, and when you go to the kitchen, you are making choices, you're not seeing someone who is looking good when you look in the mirror, or you feel good about yourself, because no matter what you look like on the outside, if you don't feel that on the inside, and your emotional state is different, you can't square that. Likewise, food is something that oftentimes we use as a drug to suppress some of these feelings. So now you can imagine you're like I'm working out, no matter how good I look, or how strong I'm getting, I don't I still don't like the way I look in the mirror doesn't matter how many people tell you, you look so good. If you have these feelings underneath from a story that you're telling yourself, you are not going to ever look in the mirror and be happy with yourself. So you just keep working out. Likewise, you're oftentimes using food as a drug to sue the same emotions. And from my perspective, this isn't everyone by the way. But if you're listening to this right now, you're probably nodding your head if you're one of these people and being like, Yes, I can relate to this. And so from my perspective, that is the group that we're talking about in this particular podcast. And first I want to just see your if you want to add anything to that story about doesn't matter how much you work out how good you look, if you look in the mirror, and you have these deep seated emotions from a seed story that you've been telling yourself unconsciously, you're never going to think you look good. And likewise if you have these emotions that you're trying to soothe with the drug of food, you may never make the changes you need to make in the first place. So that to me just is the reason why this is so important because if we can get to the bottom of that, then you can actually see yourself in the mirror as looking good feeling good, being worthy and also not using food as a drug to soothe somebody's emotions.

Lunden: [18:50] yes snaps to a lot of that. I think some of to your point some of the fittest people that I've even you know known some of the shredded most fitness people in the world can sometimes have the harshest inner dialogue and can be the most unsatisfied unhappy not always, but I just think you know, maybe someone listening is thinking okay, once I get that body or that then I'm gonna feel this way and I think you and I have probably engaged with a lot of people whose physiques are phenomenal and look fantastic but you know have underlying issues and self talk you know, things and mindset struggles and one time I wrote an article and I did a podcast on it too on my podcast called like the new Clean Eating which was cleaning up yourself talk and looking at your you know, yourself talk plan, you know, we meal prep, we get all these things organized, like you said, workout plan, meal plan, we don't want to deal with this stuff. We'll just do this to a tee this perfect, but sometimes when we look at Yeah, the way we've been talking to ourselves and speaking to ourselves, it's sometimes worse than we would speak to like our worst enemy or things like that. So I think that's something that's totally worth being mentioned. I think what we consume to your point to nutrition then a lot of that can be a coping strategy. And I often say what we consume is not even just nutrition, but it's also media and other things like that, that contribute to stories that we might tell and ways that we might feel. Nutrition is is a huge one. And it's really important. And I think, you know, without delving too much into nutrition, specifically, I just think that the awareness of coping mechanisms, whether it's, you know, masking, like I was with lots of working out and regiments, and, you know, or a coping mechanism for somebody else might be nutrition, and it's a journey to go on. And it's your own journey to go on. And it's your own rabbit holes to navigate. And I think sometimes, too, we can get caught up in just like, just tell me what to do. Tell me, what's the right workout plan? Tell me what the right meal plan is. And I'll just follow it perfectly to avoid dealing with all the underlying everything's, and we can kind of just move forward there. So I think that's something really important to touch on two is that it can be a bonding thing, we can bond with people through food, it can be just something, there's just a lot of things I think are on autopilot, right? It could be the nutrition thing, it could just be coping mechanisms that are on autopilot ways that we've always done things. And I think, what's really helped in this mindset piece, and with NLP, you know, no matter what someone listening is struggling with what their coping mechanism might be, if they're overworking out, like I always was, or if they feel like, you know, food is just got a hold of them in this store. Like there's so many I think one thing, or a lot of things, actually, but in NLP, and something I know crosses over to what you do, too, is being able to chunk up to core values and you say, Honor Code of like, who you want to be how you want to show up, what is like the highest version of yourself, doing being embodying all of that and then being able to chunk down into specific moments in times and specific moments and situations that we're struggling with, with these core values with this big picture, and then be like, okay, in day to day life, as I'm becoming more of who I want to be and engaging with more people. And this, I don't know, and this is new, this new way that I want to be a new way that I want to show up.


How can you know, as I'm doing this, that, you know, we're making mistakes, we're going through the process and having NLP to be able to chunk up and define these core values, and then also chunk down into specific moments in time when it's like, okay, could I show how could I have shown up better? How could I, you know, be a little bit more in alignment with who I say I want to be? What can I learn from situations where I did a great job and situations where I could have done way, you know, a lot better. And as we're on this journey of awareness, and discovering our coping mechanisms, and all the things it's like, we still have to get to get to word choice Lunden, we still get to go throughout every day of our life, right? Every interaction moment by moment, day by day, learning more, having more awareness of what we might be struggling with what seeds stories we're trying to break and rewrite, but like, still, we need to go throughout our day to day processes. And I think that's what I love the most about it not even just processes, but just like interactions and day to day life. And that's what I love most about life coaching is NLP is kind of like, okay, who do you want to be? How do you want to show up? And then like, we're in the arena, like as Brene Brown says, like we're going in and then you know, and then we have tools and strategies to say like, okay, how can I grow from this? How can I learn more from this? And that's where I feel like NLP nonviolent communication, and a lot of the tools that you and I talk about regularly, have been helpful, because it's like, yeah, you can go for a run, but that's not going to help, you know, the conversation that needs to be had, or the boundary that needs to be set or the Yeah, convert, like I said, conversation or communication that needs to be had. So I love tools, when it comes to mindset that has to do with words, the way we talk to ourselves, the way we talk to others, because that's what's happening every day, day in and day out.

Jade: [23:58] So let's give let's give them now let's get like sort of into the nitty gritty of what this looks like with people. So maybe we could do it with me, but how would this work? If you're dealing with me and my stories and the things that I want to change? So I guess we're we'll start with someone, obviously, if you're listening to this right now, you know, most people start with, I want to look different, feel different, be different in some way, I want my life to look different. This is normally how we start. Right. So what would be them the process of unpacking that, from my perspective, I want to I want to know from you do you start with you know, someone's underlying stories? Or do you just start with this idea of how they're showing up in the world now, versus how they want to be showing up and do the techniques start there. So tell me and you can walk me through it if you want. But let's walk through where we start this process.

Lunden: [24:55] So I usually I mean, I don't know when people come to me and start telling stories they're telling like this epics stories about situations they've encountered moments where they've experienced frustrations or problems or maybe setbacks in their lives. Very rarely do people I mean, I shouldn't say very rarely but do people come up with these big chunked up, like, I want to be more of this, it's just like, I'm struggling with this, you know, I keep finding that in my teams, you know, I'm having I'm struggling with this coworker or conversations with my partner, or like specific situations. And so where I like to start, is just helping people understand that their perception is malleable, and that there's a lot of tools that help us gain more wisdom, not just from where we might sit in that particular situation. And so I love that because usually, I don't know, it's kind of like thinking you're gonna go to therapy and like, fix all your situations in one session. It's like when people come in, it's like, they tell these very specific stories, things that have made impact moments that even things that might be on repeat. And so I like to start with the things that are happening regularly, the little battles that are, you know, happening day to day. And so I'll often ask people, you know, what's a specific situation you want to gain more wisdom on, you want some more empowering learning from, because oftentimes, we're stuck in these loops of like, this is frustrating, it's nowhere to go no, and running up against the wall and hitting ourselves in the head, it's like, okay, let's figure out what's happening. Let's take a snapshot moment in time. And let's gain some wisdom from that particular moment. Because that one, probably, you know, is copy, paste into other parts of your, you know, week, day, year, whatever. And let's figure out kind of where we sit in that particular situation. And let's gain wisdom from other places. And so that's one of my favorite tools to use. It's called perceptual positioning, and it enables us to see kind of where we might be, and where we can gain more wisdom. So there's different parts possess positions that you could be in so position one would be our own position, it would be our own experience, and being in position one is concerned with our own needs, and you know, our own to dues and our own expectations, and all those different things. And then we have the second position, which is like others oriented and being in the position of others. And, you know, that can be really awesome. And it can also be, you know, you know, staying in any of them, I would say can be great. And then also some disempowering to write if you're always in first position always in I mean, me, me, my needs, this is how it made me feel, okay, you know, that can suck, and not be empowering and not be helpful in relationships and communication and things like that. And then in second position, being others oriented, that can be awesome, right, we want to be looking out for one another and helping each other. But if we're only worried about that, and we're only like, being you know, this can be a coping strategy to right where we just are always focused on the needs of others to avoid our own, you know, our own pain and the things we need to heal within ourselves. And then the third position is kind of like the higher point of view the God's eye views the bird's eye view. And this can be helpful to kind of gain some wisdom from the situation, just kind of from more of a dissociated perspective. But you can see if you stayed there for too long, you'd be completely dissociated right from your own feelings from the feelings of others. So it's important to note that too, that all these positions have a great perspective. And it's helpful to shift and it's helpful to use some tools, so often have clients just pick a moment in time, like a specific moment where it's just felt like, yeah, they were struggling with it. And I'll have them go into their own body and process what they might be feeling and what they can learn from their valid perspective, and then go into the body of the other person that might have been involved in that conversation and that challenge in that meeting in that situation, and go into their perspective, and what can be learned and what can be understood and what can be yeah, empowering and valuable to kind of take in and bringing that wisdom to you, too. And then being able to go above the situation and just be a little bit detached and be like, Okay, what's happening here? What's the bigger picture, what's being communicated, what's not being communicated? And then have, you know, people bring that back down into their body too. And it's just great to even see in the session, some of the shifts where people, it's just like, we're so quick to point the finger at everything that might be causing it, and it's their fault. And it's this situation that even just sitting down and taking the moment to be like, Hmm, what did I think about this situation? What can I gain from the other person's perspective and taking the time to even put myself in their perspective for a moment, you know, sometimes we're just kind of like, all spastic worried about the situation and the problems. And then also, from that third perspective, being able to, you know, see and pull in even more there to sorry, I don't know if I lost my train of thought a little notice actually, I have, go ahead and detect

Jade: [29:43] let me just repeat back to you. And I'll actually give the listeners one an example of myself and then you can just kind of interject and let us know if I'm on the right track here or not. So one of and I'll just remind all of us so like one of the things we're talking about, at least from My perspective that I want to uncover is this idea of a seed story. Right? So, and how this impacts us later on in life. So for example, my older brother was mercilessly teased me, when I was a child to the point where looking back now, it was borderline abusive, you know, from my perspective, right from my, you know, so this would be my first person sort of point of view, like you said, this would be the first place come at it. Now, why am I telling this story because, from my perspective, this created in me some worthiness issues, some anger issues, some reactive stress issues, which any of you follow my metabolism work know that, if you are xx have excess reactions to stress, more stress, cortisol, this can cause issues, but it permeated into other patterns. This permeated into relationships with friends relationships with women, and it impacted my life, it also impacted my need to work out incessantly look good, be strong, right? There was a lot that this particular situation sort of caused in me. Now, some of this may have been good, some of it may have been bad, but let's just start there. So I could go back, let's say, to any of these events from my childhood, or even the way I interacted with my brother in my 20s. And I got over this in my 20s. And I think I did something similar to what you're saying. But we'll see. So if I want to break through some of these patterns, let's say now some of you at home, it might be a pattern with your significant other, it might be a pattern with a co worker, and some of these patterns with my significant others in my co workers go back to my, you know, teasing from my brother. And one of the things that I did to get over that is I said, Okay, from my perspective, in my perception, this was abusive, right, this was painful. But when I looked at it from my brother's perspective and tried to say, Okay, forget about how you feel about what happened, what was going on from my brother. And when I put myself in my brother's perspective, in a situation, my brother is someone who loves to laugh. He is someone who does everything he can to entertain himself. And he also he often entertains himself with other people, you know, so from his perspective, he was getting a kick out of me, right? He was he was playing with me like, this was his way of playing with me. And I showed up because of the way I was, as it was teasing to me, it was playing and connection for my brother. And so this was the first realization that I had, if I put myself in his point of view, and just look, honestly not my perspective. But look how he was with everyone. I saw him do this with a lot of people. And not everybody reacted to him, the way I reacted to him. Matter of fact, a lot of people laughed right along with him. And they had fun, I was miserable when the situation, he was doing the same thing to someone else, and they were having fun together, then I could take a step back for the third perspective in this situation and go, What did he teach me? Right and what did I have to learn from this? Well, it taught me things like maybe I needed better boundaries, maybe I needed to be less serious. Maybe I needed to enjoy myself more, maybe I needed to share more, right. In other words, there was something to learn there. Now whether any of that is true or not, I can tell you once I took these different perspectives, one of the first things that I realized and this was in my mid 20s, I realized this, I realized all of a sudden, in a flash in a flash, I was like I'm treating my brother who's 27. And I'm 24, I'm treating him as if he's a 12 year old picking on an eight year old, right and this all the way into my 20s. And then I had to see and my anger towards other people and my inability to have anyone say give me any feedback at all had to do with this being teased by my brother or the perception of being teased. And so that then changed my whole world because then I realized that I could just as easily see my brother as my best friend who just wants to have a good time with me. And I began to do that. Now I have, you know, other things to say here about because it doesn't always work this way because he could have really been an asshole right? And maybe I was just wrong. So maybe my initial perception was correct. But how would I have ever known if I didn't stop and go, maybe the way you're seeing the world isn't the accurate way of seeing the world and so Keoni has a way my brother had a way of seeing the world out a way of seeing the world. And then I could go up into God's point of view and go, what's the purpose of this anyway? Or at least how could I use this situation. And I can tell you that that changed, everything, fitness now didn't become a way to be stronger and better than and competitive with other people. Soon as I made that realization, not only did I get along better with my brother, I got along better with everyone else, I started learning more from other people. And my fitness endeavors became more about me, and competition with Jay then competition with others. And this permeated into personal relationships into romance into the way I learned school, I just became a better person all the way around it. Sometimes I wonder whether I was accurate in fixing my perception or not like whether my initial perception was right, and I really was the victim and being abused, holding on to that mindset, and that story wouldn't have served me anyway. So I certainly did a better job for myself, by taking this other perspective that I could be friends with my brother, and that he just wants to connect and have fun with me. And I also could use that as fuel to get better for me not fuel to be better than him or other people. And so is this sort of the power of this? Does this illustrate this? Or is there something I'm missing here?

Lunden: [36:26] No, that's good. And I love that you brought a family example to we can talk about that. But, you know, we have enough snapshots and moments in time that for one reason or another, you know, compounding effects lead to this particular belief, like you said, you found yourself treating your brother the same as if the same action was happening over and over and over again, and all these opportunities where we get to shift perception and all the things, what's common were in it, where the common denominator were, in each situation that were involved in that set outcome is coming from. And so that's why I love the perceptual positioning exercises. And to your point, you're like, I had all these issues with this, and this and this and what my mentor says, which I love, she's always like, if you got to issue, and I love it, because it's like, it's true, it's like, we can complain and blame, and you can sit in the seat of, you know, my brother bullied me my whole life and did this. And you could continue to do that. Or you can choose to say, Hey, I'm the common denominator, I'm just gonna choose how I react, I'm gonna choose to shift the meaning he's just having fun. He's just playing around with me whatever. And when we do this work, and I'm happy that you brought up a family example, because this is always close to my heart, too, is like when we do this work, oftentimes, a lot of our seed stories and different things, involve our family, and involve different things that may have happened. And then it's like, but we still hang out with our families. I mean, maybe not everybody, but it's like, we talked about this earlier, it's like you're going through all this, you're uncovering some of these seed stories, you're feeling through it, you're working out through it, whatever. And then it's like, you still see your family on Easter, or you go and meet up with them. And so that's why I love nonviolent communication. And maybe you want to talk about that, too. I think that's really cool. Because it's like, in the trenches of unraveling on braiding on learning seed stories in the midst of it, it's like we're still engaging on a regular basis. And oftentimes, it does have to do with family. So I think that a combination of nonviolent communication, mental rehearsal, which is so powerful, and who we want to become and how we want to show up big picture, but also so helpful in terms of like, okay, next time you're around your brother, and he's making a joke or something, you know, choosing and preparing ahead of time No, I'm going to see it as funny or I'm going to see it as he's just playing with me. Or I'm going to choose that, hey, the person I want to be needs to set a boundary here. So how am I going to do that in a way that's congruent with whom I want to be? That's not you know, complaining and blaming that there's a ton of ownership and I can communicate that clearly because that's important too. And that's something that I've you know, struggled yeah struggled with or just like I say dance with too now because sometimes I just laugh at myself sometimes I share stories with you of ways that I'm just trying to bring better communication better boundaries better. Yeah, just better showing up and more congruent with whom I want to be into these family interactions into the arena where a lot of these seeds stories were created. And that can be really sticky and uncomfortable and messy. So I think it's worth Yeah, staying here in this moment, like wherever you are in this journey, like kudos to you because this is not easy. It's not for the you know, it's not it's if it's not for you if it's not for you, right if you're not ready for it, like you know, you have to we talked about this, you have to crave it, you have to want it. It's really powerful stuff.

Jade: [43:30] And I liked that you bring this up because then this gets into so here where we are in this discussion. Now let's just go back we're at this place where Okay, so we have these seeds, stories, things happen to us. We make it mean something it influences our behavior, not just with those particular people but with everybody, right. So I also have a story about growing up with my mom, she was incredibly loving, but she was emotionally volatile. And my story was, I never knew what I was gonna get. And so my mom being the first woman in my life that translated over into I didn't trust women's emotional, you know, ability to be emotionally stable. So that had consequences later. But one of the things you said that I think is really important here is like Okay, so what happens Jade and Lunden if you know, the person that I'm working with here really is an asshole and how would I know and I love that whole idea of if you have an issue is you because from my perspective, the only thing the only choice we have as humans is to take it on ourselves. If it's in our sphere of awareness and we want to change then it's up to us to make that change because if we're waiting for an apology or waiting for someone else to do it, it may never come so we have to be the ones to do it. And for me this is this idea of case a once you do it once you decide I'm going to change then from my perspective, what begins to happen is other people will either change in response or they won't. And at that point in time, you either have a best friend, which in my case, my brother literally did become my best friend, I saw that the issue really was me. However it could have been. And for many of you listening to the story, it could be that the issue actually is the other person. And here's how you will know. And tell me if this makes sense to you from my perspective, because I want to see if you have a different way of saying this, for me, if you have a patterns that repeat emotions that are recurrent, and obstacles that come up again and again, then you know, it's you. For example, nowadays, if I ran into someone who I had a difficult time with, which I have, I don't have those issues anywhere else in my life. So if I run into somebody who I feel like I'm beating my head up against the wall, and I don't have that pattern anywhere else, then I can be pretty sure it's them. However, if I look and say, Why have I, this happens with my co worker, this happens with my brother, this happens with my wife, or my husband, this happens with my sister, this happens with, you know, everyone, then I know it's me. However, if it's just them, right, and it happens nowhere else, I don't have this emotional problem anywhere else, but with this one person, then I can be pretty sure it's them. And at that point in time, I have made a change. And the only addition, I would say we need and I want to see how you deal with this is that, okay? So now you've made this big change, whoever else is not changing in response. Now boundaries have to essentially come in where you essentially say I refuse to engage with somebody who is not willing to meet me where I am trying to change. And that to me is the next step in this. So then it's like, I make the change, I take the responsibility. I'm the one who takes it on the chin. I'm the one that does the work. And then I see how my life responds in kind. And if it doesn't, and there's this one area, and that's what will happen, you'll know to work because everything will clean up except maybe one or two areas, or one or two people. And then that's when the boundaries kick in. So how do you how would you explain this way of spotting this? And then how do we begin to deal with some of these people? And or situations we can't get rid of? Like, maybe we can't get her quit our job, maybe we can't move out of our home? Maybe we can't, you know, not see the mother or father of our children? Maybe we can't get rid of our mom or dad. So then how do we begin to deal with that?

Lunden: [47:31] Yeah, totally, boundaries are super important. And I love the example that you gave where you're like, No, I can spot the knot, you know, there's, I know enough of who I'm about. And I can spot the night, you know, of what's not like, that's not, that's it that's like, you know, out of the ordinary for how my friends behave, or how my normal relationships might be or my interactions, like, you know, you might, for example, it might be the only one who, you know, gets pissed or freaks out when I don't like text you back or call, maybe have a needy friend or something like that, where you're just like, okay, you know, this is though you're the only person that does this in my life, this is very clear, I need to like set some boundaries here. I think the more congruent with you, when you the more congruent we get with our core values, how we want to show up, and things like that, the more the easier it gets, I think to spot some of those patterns and some of those boundaries. Okay, cool. Yeah. And I think too, it's like, it's, it's also situational depends on who it is to, right. If it's someone that you're like, you know, and this is sometimes we're coaching and also discernment comes in where it's like, do we need to have a conversation with the person is just a person you just don't you know, engage with anymore? Or I don't know, maybe it's like your nail stylist talks crap all the time. And you're like, this is the only person around me that just talks crap incessantly about people, I'm gonna go find a new nail salon, I don't need, maybe you could explain it to her and get, you know, a non violent, non violently and communicate with her there. But, you know, maybe there's situations like that. But then like, what if it's, yeah, I don't know, your boss, or just other situations where it's like, boundaries have to be set differently. Because even if Yeah, they're the only person that's showing up in your life and this avatar in this way, and their seats, stories contribute to it, and whatever, you probably can't just like Ctrl, Alt, Delete them, it's like, we have to deal and show up in that. And I think that's why nonviolent communication can be so helpful.

Jade: [49:21] So let's say it's my sister, then. Sorry, Jodi, if you're listening to Jodi, Jodi, who's my personal assistant, and my sister, we have no issues but let's say it is, let's say it is my sister and you know, how would I then have set the boundaries and communicate with her in a non violent way? Yeah. Because this is important, right? Because if we approach this one way, we met like, it'd be like, if I approached it one way with my brother, maybe he does go, you know, screw Jade. He's just a dick. If I approach it another way, maybe he's on board. So how would we approach this? Like, what's the, what is what can you give us like, one, two or three? Are there principles of nonviolent communication where we can essentially say here's our two cheat code for having some of these conversations and putting up boundaries?

Lunden: [50:03] Yes, yes, yes. Okay, let's talk about what nonviolent communication is. I'll quickly go through some of the four steps. And then I'll share a story about me dealing with family. And maybe that helps with family stuff. Yeah. Okay. So with nonviolent communication, there's kind of like four steps are four principles to go through when it comes to communicating nonviolently. And this is the work of Marshall Rosenberg, this was a book that I read that was recommended to me by my mentor, and I just loved it, I love the way that he was able to paint the picture of communicating non violently between families, like we're talking about, but then also between, you know, a lot of his work talks about ways that he was able to engage groups of people in nonviolent communication that were like maybe some of the biggest gangs and the police officers in big cities and things like this. So it was really cool for me to see the spectrum of ways that nonviolent communication was helping from everyday living in our interpersonal relationships and things like that to big picture, big issue stuff. So love the work and so yeah, nonviolent communication. So four principles. The first one is observation over evaluation. So when we're communicating with somebody, it's very important that we communicate the observation, not like our interpretation of that. So an example would be like, you know, when you came home, you were super rude. Versus like, hey, when you came home, you were really quiet. You went upstairs, you didn't say anything? What's up? You know, like,

Jade: [51:27] Rather than I'm making the assumption, they were rude just saying what is up with that.

Lunden: [51:32] and the person's like, well, I wasn't being rude. I was fine actually was done it. It's like, it gives them more of like, yeah, like the open ended answer, like, well, what was that? Oh, yeah, you're right. I did. I didn't even realize it. They might say, you know, I didn't realize it. I just like, or it could have been like, you know, I had to go pee so bad. I was driving, and all I could think about was going to the bathroom. So I ran straight up upstairs, and I went to the bathroom, and I wasn't being rude at all right? So understanding that when we want to communicate with someone, especially when we're setting boundaries, or we want to communicate about something that might be just challenging, that we're not putting our own evaluation on it our own model of the world on it. So the observation is number one.

Jade: [52:06] that is a good one. That's a hard one, but it's a really important one so just what happened, the facts, not our interpretation of the facts.

Lunden: [52:14] Yeah. Or like, you know, you got so angry and upset, you know, it's like, well, I noticed your tonality of your voice change, like, what happened there? How, you know, was it was it something, you know, was there a shift, like, just like, being as basic as you can with observing what happened without putting our evaluations or saying what you saw? Saying what you saw exactly what happened? Because, yeah, we can so put our own ingredients, our own sauce on it, our own toppings, and it can just be, yeah, it ends up just being like, our own perspective. Again, we're not gaining anything, we're just like, projecting. So the second one is feelings. So this one's important, because it's like this happened and I felt like you were rude. And you made me feel this way. So it's like this happened. And I felt, and this is where I love words and communication, because I feel like, at first, I thought having more words for how I was feeling would be overwhelming. But I realized having more words for how I'm feeling is actually very empowering. So it's cool to be able to be like, okay, am I just angry? Or am I frustrated or disheartened or confused? Or, and just getting really in tune with how we're feeling? So then we can accurately say that to someone like, I feel like, yeah, it's helpful to be able to put the points on exactly how we might be feeling so then it's not like, I don't have I don't want to feel like this is just me personally saying, like, I'm always angry. And for a while, I felt like there were a lot of feelings of anger that were coming up. But then I realized, like, okay, maybe this is a little frustration. Maybe this is a little resentment. Maybe this is a little, a little sadness, you know, maybe not, you know, so being able to kind of break that apart, I think is super helpful. And I think the more that we can kind of understand it for ourselves, the better we can communicate it to others, and to know that our feelings are not, we're not at like at cause for them. Nobody made us feel any type of way. And I think that that already is maybe a concept that is triggering, but I think it's already or on top of that even more like maybe you can understand Yeah, no one makes me feel this way. But it is so ingrained in our speech patterns in the English language. This made me feel that way that made me feel like this. You made me feel that when you did that, it's like, what are we Stretch Armstrong where everyone gets to pull us in every different direction and make us play you know, feel all types of ways. So I think that's really important is just get you know, and I think nonviolent communication by Rosenberg is a great book, Atlas of the Heart by Brene Brown, great book, they literally have pages of words that describe how we feel and I'm just going through and I'm like, oh, yeah, that one time I thought I was a crazy basket case just angry again. No, that was this feeling and now I can see where that came from. But I can have a little bit more compassion and understanding for it. And I think too, like, if I'm coming at you, Jade, and I'm like, You did this and you made me mad, it's like, what, you know, it's like, hey, this happened. And I started to feel, you know, these, you know, feelings of, you know, rejection came up. And yeah, I just, you know, kind of explore the conversation instead of being like you did this and you made me feel this way period, it's fine.

Jade: [55:26] Because it's, it's it keeps people from being on the defensive, they don't have to go on the defensive, you're owning it, you're essentially saying, You didn't make me feel anything but this happening. And I felt, right. And so that, to me, keeps it someone from reacting. Because I think, inherently I think we all know that, if you feel a particular way is because you feel that way. And you're right, it can be triggering to someone, but I see it as a sign of maturity that people just go, I felt this way, no one can make me feel anything, you know, feelings are somewhat of a choice. But I like that aspect of it. So what's the third piece?

Lunden: [56:03] so then the third one is our needs. So being able to communicate our needs for maybe like, Hey, I felt, hey, when you didn't call when you said that we were going to hang out, I felt a little bit sad, because I want to spend time with you. So it's like a need for time spent or things like that. Being able to communicate or wanting to spend time with you, or even like I have a need. Yeah, maybe this works with a family member, just anyone, like I have a need to be on time my kids get home at a certain time. So I'm feeling a little bit, you know, unheard or frustrated, because, you know, I noticed that you're always coming in 15 minutes late. It's not like you're always late, and inconsiderate and rude. It's just like, I noticed that this behavior is happening. This is how I feel I have a need to be on time. Have a need to spend time with you. What's another common need have a need for things to be kept tidy? Right? Sometimes we want to make nonviolent requests for everyday things too.

Jade: [57:07] sorry to interrupt but I like that one because it is a fact, if you say you were 15 minutes late, that's not saying you were rude. It's just saying you were 15 minutes late. So you can say that here. And then you say, and I felt this and then I need this, I have a need to be on time I have a need to get my kid. So that's the third.

Lunden: [57:28] Yeah, that's the need. And then the fourth part, I think is really important. Is the request is the request, not the demand. So the request, okay, based on my observation and the way that I felt and my need for XYZ, here's a request that I have. Now this needs to be this is not. And this is where we get to see that sometimes we can be completely unreasonable with our requests. So I think there are some parts to break down when it comes to the request. But it needs to be like low hanging fruit, it needs to be like, Hey, can you just send a text if next time, you're going to be a little bit late, or just something where it's like, the person doesn't have to shift their whole entire day and their whole entire being of who they are in order to meet your request, right? So we need to be able to make a manageable, more manageable request. And then depending on the person, right, sometimes we can like kind of negotiate the request to like, okay, yeah, that doesn't make sense. Maybe we can do more of this, depending on what the relationship might be right. And then also being I know, you use the term like competently detached in relationships, but like, when we make the request, it kind of has to be like a detached request, where it's like, the person can be like, No, despite your observation and how you feel and your needs, nope, not doing that request. And we have to be okay with that, too. So in this process of communication, it's not just being able to say how we feel, but also asked for what we might need, which can be totally tricky for a lot of people to just like, ask for help ask for what we might need, and then also be okay with what their response might be. Right? And it's a request not a demand, and how do you know, because if someone is making a request, say it from the other end, like if you're making a request of me, or like, I have a request for you, and I say no and you lose your shit. Like that was very clearly not a request, it was a demand, right? So even from our perspective, too, it's like, okay, well, what if that person says no, and, and even for myself, too, sometimes I noticed myself coming from a deplete a place of demand and that's why I like to sit and do a lot of introspection and what do you call it like visualization? Because I'll ask myself, Okay, well, if you make this request, and this person says no, and I get that kinesthetic feeling that I get all fired up, then I can be like, okay, Landon, are you sure you're not making a demand? Maybe you need to like, let that simmer a little bit before you go in and make that request. So that way, should that person say no, you show up in a way that's also congruent with how you want to show up when someone also maybe rejects you or says no, or it's just like,

Jade: [59:46] I love this because this is this is a this to me, it's really smacks of Extreme Ownership because it's basically like, own your feelings. Own your needs. Own your requests and your reaction. In other words, and to me, it's also a vetting strategy, right? Because if you do all this and communicate in this way, then you can be pretty sure this is another way to go, is it me? Or is it them? Well, if I've not blamed them for my feelings, and I've made a reasonable, you know, I've explained my needs that I've made a reasonable request, and they refuse to participate. Now, I have lots and lots of information to be able to say, then I will now do this, it's fine for you to make your choice. But now I get to now make a choice whether I participate with you in the same way that I once did. I have an example of this with one of my older brothers, you know, county is one, not the one that tease me. But the other one chemo, I have great relations with both of them. But I have a boundary with chemo, where we just don't talk business with each other. Because from my perspective, and chemo noses, we've had this conversation, from my perspective, it never goes well. And some of the requests that I've made to him, I feel like are too difficult for him, or he's unwilling to really meet me there. And so I simply just go, my boundary is I'll have any conversations with the brother that I love, but I won't engage with talking about my business or his business or anything around that. Because I've seen that it goes sideways. Now I do leave open the possibility that it will change. And it has actually slowly changed with me and chemo. But I think because I had the boundary is what actually was the thing that began the change. And I'd never established that boundary I'd never communicated. And you know, I don't think I did, as well as these four stages. But I think I did a fairly good job not understanding these four stages. And the boundary is what I think has repaired our relationship a little bit. And I think he established some of those boundaries with me as well. And so it's really interesting, because I think people are want the relationships to change, but then they don't want to have these kinds of conversations or set up the boundaries to allow for the change. So they just want to let's just keep doing the same thing. And hope one of us changes this, to me is a better approach.

Lunden: [62:16] Yeah. And it can be like, this is the way that we do it. And keep going, especially with family, especially with relationships that have been that way all the time. And I think that's such a beautiful way of being able to still have a relationship with a family member, but being like, hey, this topic is just off limits, it doesn't do either of us any justice, it's not empowering at all, for us to talk about that, like let's just focus on what we do like to talk about and what we can, you know, grow with one another talking about and things like that. Yeah, and maybe you didn't use these four steps that I definitely, you know, have had many experiences communicating with family in so many ways that I am not proud of, in so many ways that I that I am proud of, to but in so many ways where you're just like, oh man like this is, is really challenging. And, you know, all the triggers all the repeat stories, all the things. And when I found nonviolent communication, and this is kind of the story, I guess I'll share because it's really it's family stuff. And I think I don't know, maybe I'm a little bit of a nerd, like a geek, but I learned something and I'm like, Okay, I want to practice like I want to put that this out into real life. And I love the journey of getting to know more people who are in this nonviolent communication space, because oftentimes I say, like, you say that so much better than that, you know, because I'm, there's been there's a situation, okay. So in my family, for example, like with me and my dad, we get along super well. But like, for some reason, every single time. And this might be an exaggeration, because it's probably not every time but a lot of times, and I don't know why. And we've kind of observed this, and we just kind of like when we go on family vacations. And I know this is probably a time that probably many families can identify with, like shit hitting the fan and whatever. But there's always a blowout between me and my dad. Like always, and it'll just be, you know, over the littlest thing, especially over plans and just doing things and then sometimes it'll be over like things with the phone or maps, or directions or just different things. And to your point of where you said, like you're treating your brother like he's nine and you guys are 12. And kids again, I just found myself like, oh my gosh, 33 definitely on repeat since I was 14 in the same loop of just like family vacations, getting in frustrating conversations, whatever. And so we went for my niece's birthday to go to this like waterpark and I'm in the backseat of the car. We're in like the family car, my whole entire family, my niece, whatever, and I want to put the navigation on my mom's car because it has like the navigation space in the middle now and yeah, very different. Like they didn't have cars like that before my mom, you know, they never had like the screen. It was just always like, just yeah, the cars now are different. So I was like, Yeah, let's just plug in the thing. I'll put the maps on it'll be good to go. You know, and my dad's just like, frustrated. He doesn't want to use that because he doesn't know how to use that and of course my valley deviations are going you never want to learn anything new. You always learn, like observations. So I'm sitting in the backseat. And I'm like, I'm noticing that we're having issues like getting home. And this process is super easy of putting the navigation in the front. And I'm feeling very overwhelmed because I have a need of being able to be on family trips and be able to have them go smoothly. So I have a request, can I put the navigation on the screen? So that way, we don't have to worry about who's playing navigator and who's not. And what response did I get? No rejection turned down, couldn't even use the navigation, right? So I was sitting there in the backseat laughing just thinking like, this is real shit. You know, like, this is like the spouse, you know that it just is like challenging because you're like, Dude, I It's common denominator I could have and even my niece got it. She's four, and she's sitting next to me, she's like, if you don't stop, then grandpa's not going to stop because we're going back and forth. Just like murmur murmur, we remember back and forth, you know. And it's just like, noticing these patterns, having fun with it, laughing with it. And then also, I just look forward to getting better at being able to, and this is why it's like fun. And it's play. And it's, I see it so empowering. Because it's like, yeah, I want to get better at communicating my observations and my needs and my feelings and my requests in a way that feels less rehearsed kind of, but when I'm practicing, being who I want to be it does require a little bit of kind of rehearsal there where it's like, okay, normally, this is how I would react with my dad, this is the autopilot. But I'm gonna rehearse being different and try to get a different outcome. Did I get my way? No, but was I proud of how I showed up? Yes, because I was like, yeah, yeah, you aren't really, I'm not that way.

Jade: [66:35] that is a really beautiful thing. Because from my perspective, you know, we've all heard that idea people are practicing, well, maybe some people haven't. But people are practicing something I've heard, I oftentimes repeat to myself. And one of the things that I decided, again, around my mid 20s, when I started to, you know, see some of my patterns and take responsibility. For all the patterns in my family that I want to change, I was just like, I'm gonna take responsibility for that. And one of the things that I just began to do is to approach things a lot like, you know, you, you're saying, I started to just say, I'm going to communicate this and that. And if I, if people aren't willing, then I will do what I need by setting boundaries. And one of the things that happened was, I think most people, they just decide I'm not going to deal with it. So I'm just going to shut down, I won't have any discussions, especially with family and what I found is that other family members who did that, I have tend to get along very well with people have very deep relationships have very honest relationships. Now, I went through this again, with my wife, who I had many of, you know, my stories, I won't rehash that. But to me, every time I found something in my life that I needed to take responsibility for. I just said, people are practicing, I'm going to practice I'm going to have the difficult conversations. And I'm going to figure this out. And I am better for it. And it always sort of, kind of is interesting to me that the natural default for a lot of us and for me for a long time. So no judgment here is to just stop talking. And that assures the patterns, hang around. One of the things about my family, we're big Italian American family yell and scream at each other. And I've seen other families they go, how are you guys so close? And I think it's literally because we yelled and screamed, now we yell and scream less. We still communicate, though. But I think as long as even if you're yelling and screaming, and you're communicating, that's better than not communicating. And I do think it's useful to consider that people are practice and we need the practice.

Lunden: [68:48] And I will I want to share one other thing, because I think, I mean, I guess family can write each other off, you know, like, my dad could have been, like, you told me about the navigation, you're out, we're done, right? Or your brother could have, your brother could have been like, you know, you're crazy for thinking I'm bullying you or did it out, we're out. Right? I, you know, it's not the case for everybody. But I feel fortunate enough to even in that space of being able to practice around my family in that space. It's really hard. But I also knew that despite his answer, you know, yes or no, of that small little instance. Like we were still good, you know, but I had a recent conversation with a close friend of mine, that's been my friend for a really long time. That was one of those situations where we said we can spot the knot and it was less a matter of like, you know, is this conversation going to end as the way it did when I was 16 with my dad or not. And this was really more like, I had some a boundary to set I had something to communicate that was really important. And I'd shared this with you. And we had talked about like, How can I do this in the best, most congruent way with who I want to be and how I want to show up and in the end when making this request. And granted we her and I had a long conversation. It wasn't so robotic. As it was in the backseat with my family, but I really tried to use a lot of these techniques and share much more observations and evaluations and use a lot of words to communicate my feelings and needs and make a request. And the outcome of that request could have resulted in her being like, No, I don't want to be I'm not going to, you know, I don't see where you're coming from. And you know, we're not, we can't be friends anymore, I don't see the value in our relationship I was she could have been really hurt by something that happened that was in the situation. And I remember getting off the phone with her and I was on a walk outside, and I remember being like, okay, like this person who you've been friends with for 15 years, like the relationship that you know, or you know, and love or knew and love, despite what you needed to set boundaries on, could be like, over as you know it. And I remember telling myself like, okay, it's either going to be better because of this conversation. And also, if it doesn't work out, like, I'm proud of what I said it was congruent with who I am. And so I share that, because it's like, some of them can be as funny as everyday conversations and funny stuff with our family and things like that. And it can be like the real deep stuff of like, as you're showing up who you want to be, and there's somebody else in your life where you're like, hey, like, this is really like, boundary time, like I want to, you know, and, and there can be moments where, yeah, she could have said yes or no, she could have been out. And there can be moments where I think it's, it's a sieve, it's challenging, but it's like communicating, showing up how we want to be can sometimes just let things that need to go people relationships, situations, go. And sometimes that can be scary, too, right? Because it's like, if we say how we really feel, and what our real needs are, and we make this request, they really can be out. And they can really be out to like, out right, not in the way that my dad was out on the navigation, but they could be like out of my life for good, or for a significant compute significant period of time. Or maybe she you know, she doesn't want to talk for some years or needs time to cool off or whatever. And that for me is like, that's, I think that's worth mentioning, too, because there are moments when, when, you know, we're changing some of the seed stories that we talked about, we're having new realizations, we realize fitness isn't everything, mindset stuff, we're wanting to become more of who we want to become. And then it's like, we have to show up. You know, sometimes you have people would say to like, when you ask for more patients, you don't just get more patients, you get more opportunity to be patient. So I think as I'm practicing nonviolent communication, I feel like I'm getting so many opportunities to practice nonviolent communication with my family, with my friends, with people I work with, with you, right, like just being able to, like present observations, feelings, needs, or requests in a good and in a fluent, you know, respectful.

Jade: [72:49] actually think that's the perfect place to end. Because I think, very clearly, I'm very clear on this. And what I'm going to say is going to be really hard for some people. But this is just a fact of life. And every single one of us listening and involved in his conversation right now is going to are going to know this is a fact of life, as soon as I say it, first thing is, imagine the energy that is freed up, what if that relationship does dissolve, and you have to see it that way you have to go, this may dissolve and I will have more energy to do what I want to do in my life. And the second thing I'll say, and here's the truism here, you cannot have the life that you want the different life that you want. By holding on to the same you in the past, you just simply can't. And from my perspective, it is not just a possibility, but oftentimes a necessity, to allow those relationships to be jettison. And I would say that too many people are so terrified of relationships ending or taking on a different form, that they will voluntarily keep themselves stuck. And this is something that and I hate to say it, and I don't mean it in an uncompassionate way, but this is you voluntarily keeping yourself stuck, so that you can have a relationship that isn't even serving you. It's just craziness when you really think about it. So to me, I oftentimes say there's two courage is we need in life, the courage to be disliked, and the courage to be rejected or the courage to reject. And if we don't have those, we can't be the new thing that we want. And that would be my final thoughts here. So give me your final thoughts and then make sure I want everyone to know where they can find you and listen to your podcasts and your social media and all that kind of stuff.

Lunden: [72:42] I think I mean, I think my final thoughts are just short, just to say that, you know, communication and mindset and showing up in those arenas and in those gyms for the repetitions in those areas is so much as a just as important if not more important. And then the reps we might be putting in, in the gym or the reps we might be putting in thinking about our workout and our meal plans and our this and are that if anyone listening is just that, you know, the one thing they take away is like, Okay, I'm going to work in a little bit more than I'm focusing on the workout like I would be super happy on that point. And then yeah, I mean, I'm everywhere at life like Lunden, on social media everywhere. You guys can connect with me there.

Jade: [75:25] Life like Lunden on Instagram on Tik Tok on Facebook, on what else? All the places at life like Lunden and Lunden has a really amazing podcast. Tell them about your podcast.

Lunden: [75:41] So the podcast is called self love and sweat the podcast available everywhere you listen to podcasts and sometimes it's me by myself. Sometimes it's conversations, just to hearing stories from people empowering to live your life unapologetically, embrace where you are in life and just like continue to show up doing what sets your soul on fire.

Jade: [76:00] you're amazing and brilliant and beautiful and badass. Thanks so much for hanging out.

Lunden: [76:05] thank you.


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